My Comments on the John MacArthur/Ben Shapiro Interview

I’ve had a couple of people mention this program on Dec. 2, 2018, in which conservative writer Ben Shapiro interviewed John MacArthur on his weekly “Sunday Special.” Shapiro has a wide range of guests on this show, and this one has gotten a lot of buzz in the Evangelical world. So I decided to watch it, as I’ve done with some of Shapiro’s other specials. His podcast, “The Ben Shapiro Show,” heard every weekday, goes in and out of my “favorites” podcast playlist, depending on how shrill and obnoxious he is at any given time. I do like a lot of what Shapiro says, and I think he wrote the most incisive article of the 2016 election season, “You Can’t Pretend Trump’s Flaws Away,” in which he compared those who idealized Trump to people in abusive relationships. Great, great piece.

Anyway, one friend had forwarded a link to an article about the interview, but I wanted to see the real deal, so I started out intending to listen all the way through. Early on, though, at about minute seven of a well-over-an-hour program, we were treated to the following exchange:

“As religious people, how should we choose between candidates who may not be personally moral but may forward our priorities, or do we disengage completely?” Shapiro quizzed.

“It’s a challenging reality,” MacArthur responded, “but it is less challenging than it used to be.” Why? Because “you have a party that advocates the killing of babies,” the pastor noted. “I can’t vote that.”

“I don’t care who the other guy is,” MacArthur said. “You’re looking at the lesser of two evils.”

As for the state of the president’s character and morals, MacArthur used the analogy of a brain surgeon to highlight that the presidency “is not a position of moral authority.”

“If a brain surgeon is going to open my brain, I’m not too concerned about his moral life,” he said. “I would like to know that he’s been in somebody else’s brain and he’s done the right thing when he’s been there.”

“Nobody is perfect,” MacArthur continued. “You choose the best you’ve got. Someone who does justice and fears God.”

Pastor John said that much of what people should be looking for in a president is “competence” rather than a clear-cut sense of morality.

“Who can move things in the right direction? Who has the leadership ability?” he explained.

(This transcript is from “John MacArthur Tells Ben Shapiro Why Christians Must Stop Looking to Trump for Moral Authority,” on the website “Faithwire.” I find doing transcription of audio myself to be difficult, so I was glad to find this—it’s quite accurate. Remember, I watched this section of the actual interview, so I’m not depending on this source except as a convenience.)

At this point I was so appalled that I just stopped. I knew from the article I was sent that MacArthur gave a clear presentation of the Gospel later in the interview, and good for him. As far as I’m concerned, though, he completely undercut any biblical authority he had in this interview because of the sentiments he expressed above. Here’s the thing: if I were an unbeliever, and I had tuned in to the program, and I was already extremely puzzled about why Christians voted for Trump in such large numbers, and maybe thought I’d hear something instructive, my reaction would be, and I quote:

“Wh-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-t?”

There is so much wrong in this initial brief interchange that I just didn’t have the heart, or the interest, to go on. (My husband, bless him, listened to the whole thing.) While I honestly mean no personal disrespect to Dr. MacArthur, and I recognize how much good he has done as a minister of the Gospel, I found his comments here to be absolutely appalling.

Where to start? I’ll just try to work my way through. You’ll find a list of resources for further reading at the end of this article, so don’t just take my word for what I’m saying.

First of all, and this is the error from which so many other Evangelical errors have flowed, MacArthur is willing to stake everything on the abortion issue. As long as one party has a pro-choice (pro-death) plank in its platform and the other has a pro-life plank (and the Republicans who wrote the platform did an excellent job of spelling out a great position), then–and this is the key point—we have to vote for the candidate of the pro-life party, even if said candidate has no pro-life record and has demonstrated zero respect for women and for the family. If the candidate is willing to say what you want, even if his record in no way backs up his words, then that’s fine. MacArthur has said repeatedly in other venues that you vote for a platform and a coalition, not a person. But that position is simply wrong. Everything rises and falls on leadership. You can’t make Donald Trump the poster boy of the pro-life movement without smearing and damaging that very cause. We are seeing this principle play out in front of our eyes.

Secondly, MacArthur reiterates the tired analogy pushed by other Trump supporters, including Dennis Prager, that hey, I don’t ask if my doctor is sleeping around. I just want to know if he can cure me. To which I say:

S-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-gh.

This is such a lame argument that I don’t know where to begin. I guess I’ll start out, once again, with feeling, to say that this ain’t what MacArthur and other Evangelical leaders said about Bill Clinton. Oh no! Back then the President’s character mattered. Even though one could say that Clinton was vastly more “competent” than Trump, he was seen as a blot on the office—and rightly so. Democrats are now having to do some painful re-assessment of their attitudes towards a man who may have presided (with lots of Republican help) over a robust economy, welfare reform, and a great reduction of the national debt but who was, not to put too fine of a point on it, a sexual predator, both before and during his term in office. The fact of the matter is, if my doctor drinks heavily or is addicted to drugs, if he’s so distracted by his marital situation that he can’t concentrate on my treatment, if he’s being hounded by loan sharks for repayment of gambling debts, well, Dr. MacArthur, he’s not the one for me. How I would be able to know all this about my doctor is another question entirely, but the fact of the matter is that with Donald Trump his history and moral failings were and are on display for all the world to see.

Okay. On to the third remark: “Someone who does justice and fears God.” I’m just so completely puzzled here. Is this literally, and seriously, supposed to be a description of the current President of the United States? It seems so. I just . . . don’t know what to say. I’ve used up my “one-wh-a-a-a-a-t-per-article” allowance.

And finally, we have the words “competence” and “leadership.” We have the ability to “move things in the right direction.” None, none, none of this applies to the current POTUS. I just don’t know what MacArthur is even talking about. I picture him driving to his office with Rush Limbaugh expostulating on his car radio. (He has the right to listen to whomever he chooses.) Then I see him at his church carrying out his pastoral duties—counseling, writing, studying, praying. (He is obligated to do those things.) Then I see him going home and watching Fox News. (He can watch whatever TV shows he likes.) But what he must not do is present himself as an authority on the spiritual implications of our political situation when he clearly is not paying attention to what’s playing out right in front of his eyes.

Here’s what I wish Dr. MacArthur had said in answer to Ben’s question:

“Well, we Christian conservatives made a bet back in 2016 that we’d get more of what we wanted from a serial adulterer and bankruptcy filer with no conservative record than we would from a lifelong pro-choice Democrat with a long history of questionable dealings. We thought we could control Donald Trump and bend him to our will. We were clearly wrong about that, for the most part. We may have paid too high of a price to get conservative Supreme Court justices, one of whom is already turning out to be a disappointment. We can say that we did what we could to keep the blood of unborn children off our hands, but we may have miscalculated about the end result. I’m praying that God will be merciful to America and honor the good intentions of those who voted for Donald Trump, however mistaken those votes may end up to be.”

Wouldn’t that have been great?

Okay. If your patience hasn’t been exhausted by this rather long article, I’d encourage you to do some further reading and watching:

First, if you’d like to watch the video of the interview for yourself, here it is:

Second, a video of MacArthur addressing his church from the pulpit and telling them how to vote on the Sunday before the 2016 election. He had no business doing that. He should have told his congregation to think for themselves, read widely, and pray for wisdom about their votes, then make up their own minds.

Now read this article by the Christian conservative Susan Wright:

“Let’s Talk and the Johnson Amendment and the Religious Freedom Boogeyman”

And this article by an ardent pro-lifer, Kimberly Ross: